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Changing face of a nation looking at independence



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Published Date: 17 April 2008
As the SNP continue to ride high in the polls and Labour flounder, Scottish Political Editor Ian Swanson finds out how their ultimate goal of home rule is winning over voters.
THIS time a year ago, the Scottish Nationalists were just two weeks away from winning power at Holyrood. No-one knew how the election would turn out and the fate of politicians on all sides were hanging in the balance.

But when the votes from May
3 were finally counted, the SNP had squeaked ahead to become the biggest party and Scotland's first minority administration.

Twelve months on, with the Nationalists meeting this weekend for their spring conference in Edinburgh, Alex Salmond and his party have firmly established themselves as the Scottish Government. They are still riding high in the opinion polls and now there are indications of growing support for their ultimate aim of independence.

Mr Salmond could not have wished to be in a better position as he prepares to address delegates at Heriot-Watt University's campus. And he will be hailed a conquering hero by the party faithful.

There is no doubt the SNP has made an impressive transition from opposition to government and carried the skilful handling of the election campaign forward into the adept management of power.

But part of the reason the SNP "honeymoon" has lasted so long is that the opposition has been so poor.

The election may have left Labour with just one seat less than the SNP, but the fortunes of the two parties over the past year could not have been more different.

While the Nationalists have made the most of their historic opportunity and set about the task of governing with vigour and enthusiasm, Labour has struggled to come to terms with the novel predicament of being out of power.

Almost everything Labour says or does seems petty, carping, ill-judged or badly handled. So when will the shine start to come off the shiny new SNP government? Surely it can't last for ever.

The first year of Nationalist administration has seen a range of populist policies, like scrapping tolls on the Forth Road Bridge, ending student endowment charges and starting to phase out prescription charges, not to mention freezing the council tax, while other promises – like writing off student debt and handing out £2000 grants to first-time buyers – have been ditched with surprisingly little fuss.

And at the same time the SNP government has made sure it is seen to be "standing up for Scotland" by taking on Westminster over issues such as Tony Blair's failure to inform the Scottish Government on his prisoner transfer agreement with Libya and the refusal to give Scotland a share of cash for new prisons.

Mr Salmond's declared strategy for government is to make things as good as possible under devolution in order to persuade voters they would be even better under independence. The battles with the UK government help create a sense of injustice in the present arrangements.

And if last weekend's TNS System Three opinion poll is to be believed, the strategy seems to be working. The poll found 41 per cent in favour independence, with 40 per cent against. And taken together with similar polls in August and November last year, the findings suggest a steady rise in support for independence and a steady fall in opposition to it.

A separate poll by Progressive Scottish Opinion last week also found a growth in support for independence – up ten points since August – though 43 per cent of people are still opposed to it, compared with 41 per cent in favour.

Opposition parties insist these polls do not reflect the real mood of Scots voters and argue there is more support for giving the Scottish Parliament more powers rather than full independence.

One opposition politician says the surge in support for independence is down to the "feelgood" factor Mr Salmond has created. "Salmond is a big personality and he has made people feel better about being Scottish and having the parliament. But it will wear off – it's not real support for independence."

And a leading Labour MSP says: "I don't think we should be too worried. It's not that long since there was a poll showing support for independence at an all-time low."

BUT a senior SNP MSP says the trend identified by the TNS System Three poll has to be taken seriously because it asked the question which the Nationalists propose for a referendum – whether the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the UK government so that Scotland becomes an independent state.

The MSP says: "It's all in the way you frame the question – if you ask people if they support 'separation' they will say No, but if you ask whether the government should negotiate for independence, that's a different matter."

It seems almost certain, however, the real picture of public opinion will become clearer if and when the detailed implications of independence are properly debated. Questions about Scotland's economic prospects, the implications of maintaining sterling as the national currency, the creation of separate armed services and how to divide up UK assets will all spell controversy.

The SNP can be expected to present a slick case for independence or, as they like to put it, taking on the powers and responsibilities of a "normal" country. The crucial factor could be how the opposition parties respond in defence of devolution and maintaining the union with the UK. Will Labour opt once again for the "scare" tactics it has used in the past, with images of a framed map of the UK being shattered and slogans such as "Divorce is an expensive business"?

It may have worked before, but even some Labour politicians were uncomfortable with the stridently negative approach. And now that voters have defied the party's dire warnings about the dangers of electing an SNP government, a more sophisticated argument is needed.





The full article contains 995 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

John PM,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 10:08:58
Well said Mr Swanson, for once a balanced article from the Scotsman group.

"Will Labour opt once again for the "scare" tactics it has used in the past."

Yes. All the arguments against independence are based upon negativity and scare stories.

Wendy has said "I have never been one of those who believes that, uniquely among the nations of the world, Scotland is incapable of standing on its own two
feet."

And yet every Labour spokesman does seem to project this message. It is illogical and will ultimately fail against the positive case for Scots ruling Scotland.
2

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 10:09:26
A very good comment by the SNP MSP. It has a lot to do with the question. A lot of people think that the question the SNP propose merely means negociations, not actual seperation. lets have the guts to ask "Do you beleive thta Scotland should seperate from the rest of the United Kingdom and become independent?" Yes or No. Everyone can understand that.
3

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 17/04/2008 10:15:07
Before any referendum I want the various sides to produce valid figures and arguments to support their case.

Currently all we have is guesswork,guesstimates and yah-boo politics.

I also want to know in advance exactly what SNP will do with independence. It is quite opaque on this matter today. Will SNP go out of business? If not, what in some detail are its plans?
4

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 10:22:00
#3

Salmond will rules as the supreme leader.
5

FS,

Stirling 17/04/2008 10:24:48
" While the Nationalists have made the most of their historic opportunity and set about the task of governing with vigour and enthusiasm, Labour has struggled to come to terms with the novel predicament of being out of power.
Almost everything Labour says or does seems petty, carping, ill-judged or badly handled. "

Very true, the other parties need to come up with alternative proposals if they are to criticise the government effectively. Labour needs to reassess its role and performance rather than giving itself 10/10 when its obviously not up to the job at the moment.
6

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 10:29:26
Let's review the progress of this latest independence campaign after a year of Salmond's anti-UK campaigns, complaints and scraps:

Less than 0.01% of the population have participated in the much-publicised taxpayer-funded National Conversation.

Less than 0.01% of the population have signed any of the much-publicised online petitions.

Less than 0.5% of the population have read the SNP's much-publicised White Paper on Independence, the flagship of its manifesto.

Now for the polls and see how they all compare to Salmond's own admission that support for independence is from "only a quarter of the population"....

TWO-option polls:
(Independence, for or against?)
YouGov Jan 08 For:27% Against:57%
YouGov Apr 07 For:25% Against:53%
YouGov Mar 07 For:28% Against:51%
YouGov Nov 06 For:31% Against:50%
ICM Oct 06 For:39% Against:51%
YouGov Sep 06 For:44% Against:42%

And then there's the SNP's preferred TNS polls:
TNS Apr 08 For:41% Against:40%
TNS Dec 07 For:40% Against:44%
TNS Aug 07 For:35% Against:50%

MULTI-option polls:
Independence/More Devolution/Status Quo/Scrap Devolution)
MRUK Mar 08 Ind:23% More Dev:45% Status Quo:22% Scrap Dev:6%
YouGov Aug 07 Ind:23% More Dev:39% Status Quo:20% Scrap Dev:9%
YouGov Apr 07 Ind:26% More Dev:37% Status Quo:17% Scrap Dev:12%
SSAS 2007 Ind:23% More Dev:55% Status Quo:8% Scrap Dev:10%
SSAS 2006 Ind:30% More Dev:n/a Status Quo:n/a Scrap Dev:n/a
SSAS 2005 Ind:34% More Dev:37% Status Quo:7% Scrap Dev:14%

Where is Salmond's promised campaign to "repatriate" the Lewis Chessmen (ignoring that even the Lewis Museum wants them to stay in the British Museum)?
Where is Salmond's promised campaign to bring Berwick "back into the fold"?

(Surely these were not mere publicity stunts?)
7

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 10:35:41
#6

jackie the arguement is simply about whether Scotland should reamin part of the country it is in at the moment or become an Independent country which we are perfectly capable of doing. So there is by definition an arguement to be had.
8

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 10:41:53
In terms of power and control, all the “reserved matters” in the ‘national conversation’ as the “Devolved Administration” from Westminster, are not warranted by the title “Scottish Government” that is recently used by the elected SNP. The ‘reserved matters’ are all the fundamental building blocks of a self governing country, which is why independence is the first and most important bridge to cross, true the SNP have fulfilled numerous tasks they have set, as any party will do in order to build public confidence, yet it is an incorrect title, one that should only be used by an independent government.
9

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 10:42:09
Unionists are the ones totally denying the people of Scotland any say in the future of their own country. They are self-serving, and want to keep control of the people of Scotland by lying about percentages of those who prefer the Union, it is in all, only about the people who are gaining most from the Union, the politicians and the businesses who are chastised into being frightened to lose a penny.
The worst of them all are those that are stupid enough to believe all the english propaganda and follow them to the polls to vote for their nation being governed by a foreign country without any gain to themselves, only the thickest of the thick allow themselves to be lead by the nose to do exactly what the real benefactors want them to. It has not always been this way, things are changing rapidly in this country and now the Unionists find an SNP party in power and have still not accepted this. The english London controlled media is still a major problem media. Alex Salmond is the only man I have heard of attempting the goal of an independent media in Scotland, this would turn the sea change into a tsunami of opinion of our country standing on it’s own to feet again, in conversation with other nations of the world in our contexts developing our our trade routes (again) and sorting out the problems of a four hundred year occupation. There is no excuse for ignorance. Independence is the road ahead.
10

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 10:42:41
Here is an additional parallel in regard Cornwall :- http://bellacaledonia.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/the-case-for-cornwall/#more-46

As a native living in Scotland, I find it horrific that Cornwall sees half of the money it generates finding its way back to Cornwall !
11

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 10:43:43
What a suicidal statement to make:

"One opposition politician says the surge in support for independence is down to the "feelgood" factor Mr Salmond has created. "Salmond is a big personality and he has made people feel better about being Scottish and having the parliament. But it will wear off - it's not real support for independence."

Feeling good about being Scottish "will wear off".

Long may idiots like this shoot themselves in the foot.
12

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 10:47:31
#9#10

People like you do not help with your arrogant tone and assumption that anyone who does not support Independence is stupid.
13

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 10:49:58
#1 Wendy also said:

"What Scots want is to walk tall in the union, not walk out."

This Scot wants to walk tall outwith the Union. Surely every self-respecting Scot would feel that way?
14

Auckland Arab2,

17/04/2008 10:56:12
#14

Stop talking tripe. Self determination and nothing less. Scotland will never be an equal partner with England as there are 10 times as many people living there! So we should stop kidding ourselves and either shut up or grab the reigns ourselves.
15

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 10:58:47
#2 Malkster.

Your wording is not impartial enough. The word "separate" has negative connotations. The wording has to be neutral, something like "should Scotland be independent?"
16

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:00:00
#17 Auckland Arab

If you re-read my post I think you will find that I am supporting independence the same as you.
17

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:02:26
#7 HM

"Let's review the progress of this latest independence campaign"

Let's not. Your review is too tedious.
18

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 11:03:11
16. Maybe you'd like to show your 'evidence' of increased support?

Surely you are not basing your belief entirely on just 1-2 polls?
19

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 11:04:07
20. Yeah, if you don't look at it, it doesn't exist.

Hide under your blankie, connaughtboy.
20

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:04:45
#8 Malkster

Are you saying that the UK is a country?
21

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 11:11:20
#18

I was merely demonstrating the opposite ebd of the question spectrum.

#23

The one you and I belong to.
22

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 11:22:23
25. So this article is your evidence? No, it can't be.

This was only printed today so what were you basing it on before?
23

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:25:14
#22 As a Unionist, why do you present figures showing a strong trend for increased support for independence?

Are you not meant to be digging up dodgy stats to show the opposite?

Just a suggestion.
24

shivago8,

livingston 17/04/2008 11:26:19
Soon after 300 years of union stagnation we are to become a proud nation again.
Alex we are with you make Scotland good again,not tied to the apron strings of the English who pretend to ignore us and talk us down as a Hggis,whisky and "see you jimmy"nation,we are far from that.
We want decisions regarding Scotland made in Scotland and not in some foreign land
25

Union is Best,

17/04/2008 11:26:39
26. Great work. One tip from the wise - the latest of your polls (April 2008 TNS) seems to show support for independence ahead 41% : 40% and correlates with PSO April 2008 also showing support for independence at 40%.

Perhaps you could remove these polls, and focus your postings more heavily on the older ones as his would lend our position more weight.

Also all the multi-option polls seem to show 70% of people want greater powers - as that is a slippery SNP slope, could you rework the presentation of those too?
26

Union is Best,

17/04/2008 11:27:26
27. Damn, even the Nats have noticed your slip up Highland! Change moniker and move on!
27

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:31:45
further to #27, HM. I am not sure that Salmond did promise a campaign to bring Berwick back into the fold. In any case, your comment on this and the reference to the Lewis Chessmen seems a bit incongruous in a post about poll results.
28

Union is Best,

17/04/2008 11:33:21
32. Damn Nats! just because a Lib Dem MSP brought up the whole Berwick issue, and ITV did a programme on it based on a poll, clearly the SNP were behind the story, controlling the Lib Dems and ITV as they do.
29

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 11:33:30
13 malkster, Scotland 17/04/2008 10:47:31

9 No arrogance there, 10 perhaps your mistaking clear script for something else, your cringe perhaps?

So by your comment you advocate the control of A given country by another, even though the occupier/oppressor syphons off funds, give back crumbs, has a policy of cultural deterioration, destroys community, steals your resources, allows anyone to buy huge areas of land, takes your folk into illegal wars, uses your towns and countryside for experiments, dumps nuclear waste and champions reactors, uses the remoter areas for military testing, sells off your fishing rights, steals your oil, bans your international trade, creates a culture of dependency, ensures managerial institutional jobs are only for the occupiers and lesser jobs are for the natives, allows other foreign military bases to use your land, tears up the railways, steals your inventions, sterilises your land, pollutes your water, takes your energy generation and sells it back to you, takes your women, and micturates on your turf.... as an intelligent option for life in your own country by the ways of another?

I would strongly recommend independence if you have an ounce of self respect. Not to support your own country running your own business IS plain and unashamedly STUPID.
30

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:39:14
#13 Malkster

"People like you do not help with your arrogant tone and assumption that anyone who does not support Independence is stupid."

If you use my definition of "stupid", I would argue that there is a strong correlation between the two.
31

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 11:40:45
27/30. What curious comments.

The polls, to me anyway, seem to show that support has DROPPED in both two-option and multi-option polls since the SNP took office.

The denial must be very strong in the nats if they think it's the other way round.

29. Aah, you ARE basing your belief on merely a couple of polls.

So you are just going to ignore the many other polls, the almost total lack of interest in the national conversation, the White Paper and the petitions, and even Salmond's own admission to the contrary? They are irrelevant, why?
32

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 17/04/2008 11:42:17
I see Highland Mighty has got a loan of AM2's stats for the day.

Does that mean that AM2 is finished with them I wonder?

Does anyone know just what unionist direction Highland Mighty want's us to go in, to the right with the tories, further to the right with Labour or straight down the plug-hole with the Lib-Dems.

For all the anti-SNP comments I can't recall HM telling us which party is blessed by his/her support, but then that is a unionist for you.

Just wants us to stay in the blessed union, where everything has always been honesty and perfection, makes you wonder why all those ungreatful countries left the empire!

33

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 11:42:50
#34

The best bit is that the majority of the country voted to allow it to continue but hey they are stupid, how could anyone not agree with your hate filled rant.
34

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 11:43:52
I see some one has stolen the erudite pro-independence Jackie Priest (notice the comma) name.

The sludge of unionism resides in 'the unions is best' 'Highland mighty' it is truly delusional to champion that which is void of roots, cultural integrity and truth. Sad sad excuses for humans. You're "lost at sea" at the whim of the tide of regaining independence. The storms are coming and you will sink.
35

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:44:08
#34 Ard

Having recently been to see The Black Watch, I would add the following point to your list:

"the trashing of a historic Scottish regiment, known and respected throughout the world, for no reason other than to save a few quid, such saving being totally dwarfed by the £billions spent on prosecuting two unjust wars, one of which is illegal".

I trust that this regiment will be restored in an independent Scotland.
36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:46:41
#36 I quote from your post:

"TNS Apr 08 For:41% Against:40%
TNS Dec 07 For:40% Against:44%
TNS Aug 07 For:35% Against:50% "

That sure looks like a strong upward trend in favour of independence. If I were you I would have resisted the "cleverness" of including those stats in my post.

It smacks of being "off-message".......
37

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:47:55
#36, how about a response to my #32?
38

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:50:34
#36

"So you are just going to ignore the many other polls, the almost total lack of interest in the national conversation"

Given that there is such a lack of interest, you seem creepily obsessed by it!
39

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 11:51:04
34 Were back to media again.....and it's undeniable influence on the masses. Imagine a pro-independence media?

Hate?
Observation need not be cluttered with excessive emotion.
40

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 17/04/2008 11:51:07
"It seems almost certain, however, the real picture of public opinion will become clearer if and when the detailed implications of independence are properly debated."

It may, of course, be the case that the 'real picture' is already emerging and that the negative scare tactics of some stout defenders of the union - which often come over as petty and snide - are turning voters to the SNP and to the case for independence. After all, there is no real reason why Scotland should not be independent if it so wishes. Wendy Alexander's recent claims that she is a 'socialist' and is interested in 'redistribution of wealth' are scarcely credible in the light of 10 years or so of New Labour. It is a long time since Gordon Brown was a socialist; it is doubtful if Wendy Alexander ever was. Independence is an acceptable aspiration that many countries other than Scotland have embarked upon in recent years and may offer the best way forward for Scotland.
41

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 11:51:12
42. There was a campaign promised as there was with the Norwegian chess set that even Lewis Musem didn't want. And post 7 was a partial review of this independence campaign in general. Slightly pointless having to say this but there you go.

How about answering 36 now.
42

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 11:53:33
44 Sorry, see 38
43

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:54:43
#36

"Aah, you ARE basing your belief on merely a couple of polls."

There's nothing "merely" about it. AM2 seems wedded to the one saying support is at the 23% level. The Unionist sheep seem to have accepted this as fact.

Anyway, are you suggesting that all the poll results need to be avaeraged in order to get an accurate result. I am quite comfortable using two or even one poll to argue my point. That is, after all, what polls are for.
44

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:56:24
#42 see my #41
45

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 11:57:29
43. I'm not interested in it either, along with 99.99% of the population.

I think the SNP should be called to account over the cost of this plainly nationalist campaign in the light of its abject failure.
46

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:58:56
#46 If you have evidence that Salmond promised a campaign on the Berwich issue I invite you to post it here. Otherwise, put a sock in it!
47

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 12:01:23
48. I count three polls from three different companies over the past year that have support for independence at 23%....
48

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 12:01:39
#50 HM

There you go mentioning it again! You are the one person on this thread that keeps on conversing about the conversation.
49

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 12:02:39
#52 HM

How can you be bothered counting out-of-date polls?
50

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 12:04:43
40 connaughtboy,stonehaven 17/04/2008 11:44:08

Yeah, quite, and 9 Million Pounds Strling is spent on encouraging this pathetic Anglo-culture of preserve, preserve, in the form of the ridiculous visitor centre at Culloden. In the future, pointless schemes like this backwards looking manoveure will not be given a second thought. Retaining what made our regiments the most enduring in the world will continue as it can be afforded due to daft schemes being intolerable in a new independent government.
That is, if reason, via truth and clear observation weighs the authority of the ages upon it.
51

Alan B,

17/04/2008 12:09:12
Highland Mighty

Prof John Curtis (Strathclyde) one of the experts on polls was on tv the other day, said that polls over the last 9 yrs have shown quite an even split between when the single question of independence is asked. Last yr before the election there was majority support in multiple polls for independence (of those that expressed an opinion). Since the election there was a temporary dip, and we now seem to be back to the longer term position, where independence is the most popular position in many polls.

Multi question polls make the issue more complicated. A large of people here suggest they are not happy with the status quo but also do not want independence. ie Dev max. However it is made significantly more complicated by the fact no party actually has dev max (fiscal autonomy) as a policy. We do not even know what the review/commision will come up with. Is it going to be a damp squib. Will it really increase significanly increase powers. As such, while important, u can not read much into this poll. eg What will people actually want when it is alittle more power but not what they want.

I for instance want us to move to fiscal autonomy and have significantly more powers devolved and then have a proper debate over independence. Quite simply i know that is not going to be on the table.
52

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 12:12:11
Lets boldly move steadily and in a surefooted manner in the direction of independence, even if we do not reap the life to be lived by our children or our grand children, we certainly owe it to them and the freedoms that founded this country from the ancient threads of the highest culture on the Western Seaboard for the last 10 thousand years, four hundred years under the yolk can be removed with such linage known.
53

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 12:14:44
#58

That is awesome you should be in showbiz.
54

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 12:15:02
Time to move on, being "lunched out" is fast approaching.

Ignore The Priest with the comma, and all the AM2 variants - paid up imperial propagandists.
55

Highland Mighty,

17/04/2008 12:19:54
57. So are you basing your belief on just a few polls and are ignoring the trend from the vast majority of others?

It's all very duplicitous because many nats denounced previous polls (from just a few weeks back) as irrelevant when they showed dropping support. These polls, as with all polls, change just a few % each time.

However, out come two polls that show sudden and massive leaps (+10%!) within just a few weeks of the others, and these are immediately accepted by all nats as a true and accurate picture.
56

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 12:43:05
HM

If ye take all poll results from when polling started up to today you will find an enormous swing in favour of Independence it really depends on the time period between the polls. You have obviously taken a time period which fits yer stupid argument take a different time period and yer stupid argument falls down.
But then thats what trolling is all about eh??
57

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 12:47:51
56

Not to mention the fact that nobody knows what Dev max is. In fact it probably means something different to everybody who supports it.
Dev max is a decoy but it may be a double edged sword to slow independence.
58

Miss H,

17/04/2008 13:08:09
Polls are pretty meaningless because most people have not actually made up their minds about independence. That is why we nationalists have to be a bit more cautious about describing people who are not yet confirmed supporters of independence as 'unionists'. Equally people who definitely are unionists should be wary of assuming that people who are not yet confirmed supporters of independence are confirmed unionists.

It's a very fluid situation. It may be that some third way - devolution max - emerges though I have my doubts. We can't tell.

But the direction of travel is definitely towards more autonomy for Scotland and that can only be a good thing.
59

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

17/04/2008 13:16:04
this is the best trick JOhnston press have ever come up with.. Just put the word independence in the title.
60

Xena - Warrior Princess,

17/04/2008 13:35:17
Dear God Ard Righ, you do come across as a fanatic, it's scary.
61

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 13:52:10
"But part of the reason the SNP "honeymoon" has lasted so long is that the opposition has been so poor."
Just as they were while in power for eight years !
62

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 13:56:07
#61 Are you sure you meant to use the duplicitous? I hardly think that dismissing previous polls amounts to deception.
63

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

17/04/2008 14:16:42
oh blah de blah de blah blah blah. on and on , it never stops.
64

jdships,

17/04/2008 15:29:46
I received this e-mail today

" Scotland on Sunday
Dear Scotsman.com user,
Last week, we sent you a list of questions about the performance of the SNP government one year on from the party's historic election victory, with a view to publishing the results in Scotland on Sunday. I would like to thank the 2,000 people who responded to the questionnaire and I would like to explain why I chose not to publish the results.

Unfortunately, less than 24 hours after e-mailing the questions to all scotsman.com registered users in Scotland, I was informed that a member of the SNP's press team had circulated an e-mail encouraging members of his party to take part in the survey. In my view, this action jeopardised the integrity of the poll, and I took the decision not to run the results.

I can only apologise, and hope that you will continue to support online polls run by this newspaper."


SNP = equals the samw integrity as other political party's
Who's sleazy now then ?
65

brownlie,

17/04/2008 15:34:06
61 Highland

Can you tell me more about the Lewis Museum you referred to in previous posts?
66

BIG EYE,

Paisley 17/04/2008 15:38:08
Some more info from the Bendy wendy "Commission"

On the agenda this week..Devolution MAX

Item 1. Tea or coffee to be served in the Members lounge (forecast item deferred due to a split vote)

Item 2. Powers to be sent back to Westminster
(forecast Passed unanimously)
Item 3. Time Frame for Commission.Motion from Annabel Goldie suggesting twenty years)
(forecast Defeated by Labour on the basis that there is no point rushing things)

Item 4. joint press release suggesting constructive meeting, good progress and general agreement on all issues.
(Forecast ...who cares!
67

brownlie,

17/04/2008 15:46:12
79 Jackie

I seem to recall, as I happened to be sober at the time, that giving your e-mail address was optional which I thought was a bit strange.
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 15:50:45
#75 did you have a point?
69

Ken S.,

Reading 17/04/2008 16:05:00
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/the-week/615231/alex-salmond-is-nudging-the-english-towards-independence-without-them-realising-it.thtml
70

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/04/2008 17:31:54
75

I do not accept the excuse for not publishing the poll results. The Scotsman sent out an email to each of its registered users requesting their opinion. Even if others who are not registered responded, they could be filtered out easilty and only those registered counted as a response.

A more plausable reason would be that the responses of the registered users did not meet the political objectives of the Scotsman. Their must be too many so-called cyber-nats amongst the registered users and thus the response would be too embarrassing to the Scotsman.

Any 10 year old could produce a filter to eliminate those responders who were not sent the original email requesting thier opinion so it is clearly obvious that the excuse given does not hold water.

71

jdships,

17/04/2008 17:41:08
80 connaughtboy,
83 a proud doonhamer,

My point is
Ignore opinion polls : they don't mean a thing when political parties try and influence them

Next time the polls show X % in favour of independence then we just ignore it - right ?
I certainly will !!

72

subrosa,

17/04/2008 17:45:31
#83

Neither the Scotsman nor the SNP emailed me although I did complete the questionnaire. I heard about it on one of these threads. So, being completely impartial, I think my comments should be published forthwith.
73

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 18:02:05
68
,
17/04/2008 13:35:17
Dear God Ard Righ, you do come across as a fanatic, it's scary.

Well, I am not god, or a fanatic, or scary, what is scary is your lack of input and immediate derisory comment, an easy scathing psychology , given that you have chosen to not to contemplate or look in to anything I may have written and the meaning of it. Then again if my comments - thrown at the informality of a forum - carry such weight by a mere "flight of writ" you should be scared - of your ignorance.

There is some deranged fanaticism on these forums and they bear the monikers AM2, highland mighty, union is best, Geoff SA etc etc, perhaps your slow witted comments should be aimed at those deserved of being thrown in stocks for disservice to the nation?

Did you actually get off on that film "Xena - Warrior Princess" how sad.
74

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/04/2008 18:40:04
86

"Union is Best" is a nationalist who uses satire and ridicule to wind up the onionist numpties.... and also one of the funniest posters on the site. Give him his due.
75

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 18:59:36
87, I prefer Scots garlic to English onions
76

Jwil,

17/04/2008 19:17:10
There is always going to be nitpicking over the results of a poll which is quite close. It is a bit academic to say more people are keen for independence when there is just 1% between the figures, which is well within the margin of error of the poll. What is more imortant is the apparent increase in support for independence (from 23 to 41 percent).

I am content to wait for the next poll which, I hope, will show another large surge in support for independence, then what will the excuse be from the opposition? There is still plenty of time before it really matters what the polls are saying.
77

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 17/04/2008 22:27:12
85 subrosa,

I'm with you on this, I AM a SNP party member but I only learned of the poll on this site. So what was to stop the other parties from alerting their members to the poll? Nothing I presume except indolence and naive beliefs no-one would upset their apple carts.

Well, have the Scottish public got news for them!
78

karinxxx,

18/04/2008 00:54:38
I also filled in the poll after hearing about it on one of the websites. I think that the failure to publish shows that the results were embarresing for the scotsman due to the masssive support for independence.
79

Castaway,

18/04/2008 02:38:48
#7 - The only polls that count are those which ask the current question the SNP is proposing to put the the Scottish electorate. "The Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the UK so that Scotland becomes an independent state."
The YouGov Jan 08 - For:27% and Against:57%, this had 19 other questions with multi choice answers including this one:-
If there were a referendum on whether to retain the Scottish Parliament and Executive in more or less their present form or to establish Scotland as a completely separate state outside the United Kingdom how would you vote?
In favour of retaining the present Scottish Parliament 57%
In favour of a completely separate state outside the UK 27%
Would not vote 4%
Don’t know 11%

Note how the question is worded - to retain the Scottish Parliament and Executive in more or less their present form, does this mean more devolved powers or less devolved powers or status quo ?

 

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